Alternatives to the Tormek SJ Stone

[Luis_J]

Bienvenido, Luis.

I am a Tormek sharpener, and more at home with chisels than knives. There are elements of using the Tormek which are generally not well understood by Tormek users and, frankly, not well explained by Tormek.

One element is grain size. I have found that the Tormek DC-250 (also the DWC-200) 360 grit diamond wheels cut more aggressively than the 220 grit SG wheels. The physical grain size may be smaller, however, I would guess the diamond grains are sharper.

I also tend to ignore the 220 and 1000 grit numbers assigned to the use of the stone grader with the SG wheel. I am not criticizing the stone grader; it is a core part of the Tormek sharpening method. I just think that Tormek chose to use the two numbers as a learning aid for users. I think in terms of just being more coarse and more fine. When I want my SG wheel to be coarse, I take a very light truing/dressing cut with the TR-50 truing tool. I have no idea what grit number is produced by using the stone grader coarse side. It does produce a coarser stone surface, just not as coarse as the truing tool.

Somewhere along the line, Tormek discovered that the stone grader can produce middle grits. (This has not been included in the handbook.) This is referred to as "600” grit. This surface is useful in sharpening knives and is produced by using the fine side of the stone grader only briefly. I think "mid grit" would be a more useful designation.

Out of curiosity, I tried using the fine side of the stone grader for a longer than recommended time. The stone surface was noticeably smoother. I am not certain whether the cutting grains are actually smoother or just less sharp, however, this does seem to lessen the grit gap between the SG and the leather honing wheel with compound.

I have not seen anything resembling a scientific test of the grit range of the Tormek PA-70 honing compound. Like some other compounds, the grit size breaks down (becomes finer) with use.How fine? I don't know. I have found that longer use time with the leather honing wheel and compound produces more polished edges and, with good technique, better BESS numbers.

I do not dispute the value of the 4000 grit SJ wheel for some specialized applications. I just don't think many of us are squeezing all the juice out of the standard SG wheel and leather honing wheel.

Ken

Ken... muchas gracias!!!!

You're spot on and you just responded a question that I was going to ask:

Somewhere along the line, Tormek discovered that the stone grader can produce middle grits. (This has not been included in the handbook.) This is referred to as "600” grit. This surface is useful in sharpening knives and is produced by using the fine side of the stone grader only briefly. I think "mid grit" would be a more useful designation.

Nice!!!!, thanks a lot! and here comes my next  idea/question based in the same principle: 

If after using the stone grader  you use a finer whetstone (E.G. a 6000 grit). Can you add an extra step in the sharpening progression with the same  DWC-200 wheel?

I have no scientific proof of this, but I've experienced that if instead of my 3 steps progression (400-2000-8000) I go directly from 400 to 8000 the results are not the same, so, I'm conditioned to think that  an extra step in a progression is always a good thing, but again... maybe I'm wrong.

Just by reading all the info in this forum I discovered that I do a ton of things the wrong way (de-burring with a cork for starters)

If you have any input on the subject, it will be appreciated.   

And on this: One element is grain size. I have found that the Tormek DC-250 (also the DWC-200) 360 grit diamond wheels cut more aggressively than the 220 grit SG wheels. The physical grain size may be smaller, however, I would guess the diamond grains are sharper.

Sounds very logic. Thanks for sharing and thanks for the warm welcome Ken!

P.S. Seems like I'm not understanding very well how to quote when responding, sorry for using this much space, I'll find the way to avoid quoting the whole paragraph.

[Ken S]

Luis,

I understand your preference for using three grits. I did the same with waterstones for many years and with oil stones for many years before that.

There is another technique, which I learned from Tormek. I first learned this with the Tormek SG grinding wheel. It is another advance which unfortunately has not been included in the handbook. Grinding pressure is an important element in Tormek sharpening. The SG grinding wheel can work with a wide range of grinding pressures. It works with a younger user in a hurry who really leans on it. It also works with an older user who may have some arthritis and can only use light pressure. Regardless of the initial grinding pressure, if the final passes (with the same grit) are made with very light pressure, the resulting scratch pattern is less pronounced. While this may not be identical to using a third grit, it may be a workable stand in. It is easy to do, requires almost no extra time (certainly less time than switching grinding wheels), and requires no extra cost for purchasng a third grinding wheel. I suggest that you try it.

Our member, Grepper, made some very informative edge photos of this technique with his USB microscope which really told the tale. I believe these photos were lost when photobucket changed. 

Grepper, is there any chance that you could repost them?

400 grit to 8000 grit directly seems like a very big jump. During testing, I have gone directly from 80 or 180 grit CBN wheels to the leather honing wheel. To my surprise, these edges were not bad. They produced respectable, though not stellar BESS numbers. However, neither the visual results nor the BESS numbers were as good as the traditional Tormek three step technique.

My family just awoke. I must close.

Ken

[Ken S]

Luis,

As a chef, I am sure you realize the importance of not having your very sharp knives skate over things tomatoes and onions without cutting them. (the concept of "toothiness", perhaps the knife sharpener's version of "al dente").

The concept of using very fine grit stones, like 8000, seems to fit better with woodworking tools like chisels, using a push cut, rather than a slicing cut. I am not a chef. Do you encounter push cuts in cooking?

Tengo curiosidad.

Ken

[Luis_J]

There is another technique, which I learned from Tormek. I first learned this with the Tormek SG grinding wheel. It is another advance which unfortunately has not been included in the handbook. Grinding pressure is an important element in Tormek sharpening. The SG grinding wheel can work with a wide range of grinding pressures. It works with a younger user in a hurry who really leans on it. It also works with an older user who may have some arthritis and can only use light pressure. Regardless of the initial grinding pressure, if the final passes (with the same grit) are made with very light pressure, the resulting scratch pattern is less pronounced. While this may not be identical to using a third grit, it may be a workable stand in. It is easy to do, requires almost no extra time (certainly less time than switching grinding wheels), and requires no extra cost for purchasng a third grinding wheel. I suggest that you try it.

Hi Ken... Thanks for the reply. The technique that you suggest is something very similar to what I do on whetstones, I make passes with lower pressure in a progressive way, I'll try that too with the Tormek once I receive it!   Thanks for the tip Ken!

[Luis_J]

Luis,

As a chef, I am sure you realize the importance of not having your very sharp knives skate over things tomatoes and onions without cutting them. (the concept of "toothiness", perhaps the knife sharpener's version of "al dente").

The concept of using very fine grit stones, like 8000, seems to fit better with woodworking tools like chisels, using a push cut, rather than a slicing cut. I am not a chef. Do you encounter push cuts in cooking?

Tengo curiosidad.

Ken

Ken!. 

8000 grit is still great on food, that kind of edge slices and chops great, I have heard of that phenomenon of knives that skate on tomatoes and bell peppers as you mention, but I have never experienced it, 8000 turns your knife into a very productive tool that cuts food great. Some high end Japanese knives come OOTB with edges on the 6000-8000... or that's what they claim, some others come with a factory edge that leaves a lot to be desired and that are supposed to be sharpened by the owner. (Happened to me with the Masamoto HC or the most affordable lines of Tojiro, which are great knives, very very affordable and rustic like).

I'm a push cutter, some cooks and chefs are rock cutters (they use the knife a bit as if it were a guillotine, and that technique is favored by German knives that have a "belly" or very round edges like Wustoff or Henkels, but Japanese knives AKA "Gyutos" and some French knives have a more straight profile that favors push cuts), and also the balance of the knives is different and each one favors an specific technique.

The Germans have the tang from the tip to the very end of the grip , which makes them handle great when you rock it BC you have that extra weight on the handle, also they are thicker on the spine, and with the belly or round profile, they "guillotine" great with the tip always touching the cutting surface, but I feel that the technique sometimes "crushes", specially if the blade is not sharp enough, but anyway due to the design and weight, the knife will cut.

Japs on the other side have a shorter tang (traditional Japs, AKA "Wa gyuto" with wooden octogonal or "D" shaped handles) and the whole knife was created with the push cutters in mind, now, we have western style Japanese knives ("Yo Gyuto") that emulate the tang and handle of German knives but the profile is still way more straight and with no belly (or very little) and they still favor push cut above rock cut.

For me the rock cut is my favorite, that way you feel and enjoy more the blade because the cutting is the effect of the blade pushing, and thats where a sharp edge REALLY shines and performs like a champ... or a chump if it's dull. In that matter, German style are more forgiving, they can cut/crush even when dull.

I don't know if you have seen this video, I just discovered it two weeks ago and I think that is a gem. In a very easy and friendly way teaches you the many differences between the knives, here it goes, I hope that you enjoy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO35cdWL1MQ

Muchas gracias, best regards and I'll keep you posted in my advances with the Tormek as soon as I get it.

Luis!

[Ken S]

Luis, thank you for posting a most informative reply. The you tube you linked it quite worthwhile, also.

Ken

[Luis_J]

Luis, thank you for posting a most informative reply. The you tube you linked it quite worthwhile, also.

Ken

Thank you for your help Ken!