Introduction, and new Viel user

[grepper]

Here are a few belt sources that come to mind:

http://www.trugrit.com/
https://econabrasives.com/
https://www.rshughes.com/c/Abrasives/1087/
https://www.empireabrasives.com/sanding-belts/
http://www.knifemaking.com/category-s/836.htm

[Mark Reich]

Well shucks Mr. Grepper, that is super kind of you, but I don't mind sharing an office with you at all.  

Y'all make me proud to be a part of this forum. The generosity and sharing of solid information is unparalleled, and truly commendable.

Excellent work, Gentlemen!

Kevin, it's great to have you here. It's my pleasure.   

About the glass, you do need to round the sharp corners of the top and bottom faces. You really don't need to remove much material at all, but pyroceram is very tough to grind. Coarse belts will break little chips out, and the results are ugly.  

I recommend a 400 grit Deerfos. It's best to work on both corners a little at a time, so you don't wear your belt out on one corner, and have to use up two belts.

If you don't mind sharing pictures of your Viel, I'm sure everyone would be interested in what you've accomplished. 

[bruin]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the tips on rounding the pyroceram; I was going to use the blue belt that came with the Viel but now I'll get a couple of 400s for that purpose.

I'm happy to show my Viel as is (I had a pic for my first post, but the attachments aren't working for me).








This is not the cheapest way to get variable speed on a Viel, but I think it's hard to build a more capable machine under 50 lbs. The motor is a Baldor M3464, a .75 hp, 1725 rpm, 3ph TEFC motor. The Viel S-5 takes a 48 frame motor, not a common size. Baldor is pretty much the only choice for a current production, three phase enclosed motor that fits, and .75 hp is the most powerful available. 

I'm using a KBAC-24D, which is a no-frills, affordable enclosed VFD. I like how it doesn't have an LCD/display, and I don't have to enter menu purgatory just to get it programmed. Older KBAC-24Ds and similar had issues with GFCI outlets, and a lot of webpages still say that that it needs a factory software update from KB to work properly. As of the 3G version, this VFD has a jumper setting for GFCI sensitivity just like it's bigger brothers. I added an AC switch for safety and reversing switch for versatility.

I plan to add some rubber feet on the back so I can grind with the Viel lying down. I started to make a bracket to bolt the VFD to the grinder, but my wife talked me into KISS (pun intended) and keeping the VFD free. I'll bolt it to a piece of wood or something later on. I also need to shim the motor base, bolt on a completed platen, and buy some belts.

[Ken S]

Excellent post, Bruin.

You have one heavy duty Viel!!!

Good job.

Ken

[Mark Reich]

Great post, Kevin, thanks for the pictures!

That's definitely the most impressive 1" platform I've ever seen.

There is no such thing as overkill. Nothing succeeds like excess. Enough is never enough, too much is just right... All words to live by.

Thanks for the tip on GFCIs. I haven't heard that. All my VFDs are on dedicated 220V circuits, but I'm going to have a VFD on 110V running a Kally one of these days, and all exterior outlets are GFCIs, so I can not forget that!

[bruin]

Mark and Ken, I appreciate your kind words and patience with a newbie. Joining this forum has greatly encouraged me to press on with the grinder. I'm one of those odd people who enjoy building machines more than using them.  Mark, I like the way you think about overkill

I looked into the belt suppliers grepper provided and am thinking about these to get started:
3M Cubitron P150
3M Cubitron II 80 (for serious reprofiling)
Deer JS 997 Blue Ceramic 220
Surgi-Sharp belts
Bark River CBN Emulsions 16, 4 micron (engineered by Ken Schwartz)

I'm sharpening mostly kitchen knives and a few high-carbide stainless blades. Do you think I should get something in the 400 grit range? That would be a plain AlO or Trizact.

Also, how do linen and cork belts compare to leather? Can one of these loaded with 16 micron replace a fine grit belt after I'm done with the 220?

[grepper]

My personal preference for general use kitchen knives is a toothy edge, so for that reason would not use anything finer than 180 grit.  Most of the time I just use only one belt for the complete process, a 150 Cubitron.   That creates a great toothy edge.
 
Then I take care to remove as little tooth as is humanly possible whilst deburring.  The last thing I want to do is to grind away the tooth with much time spent with compound and/or pressure.  Compound is after all just another abrasive, and is a lot like using a fine abrasive belt except that the abrasive is unevenly distributed and poorly adhered to the belt compared to a commercially manufactured belt.  (I suspect I may get some feedback on that last statement).  
 
Of course if you want a mirror polished edge and start with 150, then a series of belts is required to progressively remove scratches.  200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000 + compound.  That kind of thing.   If you try to skip steps and go from 200 to 800 for example it will work, but it takes longer to remove the deeper initial scratches using a fine grit.  If the steel is really hard it can take considerable time and fine grit belts heat things up quickly too.
 
I have belts ranging from 40 or 60 grit ceramic to microfinishing film and super soft cloth belts that are about like using blue jeans to sharpen with.  The fine grits can be fun to play with and handy for polishing stuff in general, but for 99% of kitchen knives I just use 150 or sometimes 180 grit.
 
Of course, that’s just my personal preference and YMMV.

So, sure.  Get a couple of 400's too.  They can be handy to have around.  I would suggest getting a few thrift store cheapo blades and playing with various grit finishes and see what you like the best.  I'd get what you already have on your list and maybe a 400 too start out with.  Play with those, understand what they do, and then if you want other grits you'll know why.  No need to overspend on a bunch of belts to start with.

Oh, and BTW, that's quite a Veil you made! Great job!

[bruin]

Thanks for that detailed reply, grepper. In retrospect, it wasn't the smartest question - I take my Japanese kitchen knives to 2000 or 5000; somehow it didn't click in my mind that powered sharpening would be no different and require some intermediate grits. Good advice on thrift store knives to practice on, and I'll probably order a spread of belts that I think I'll use and see which I like.

In case anyone is interested, I shimmed my Viel tonight. Previously, the drive wheel was further from the frame at the top than the bottom, causing the belt to track away from the grinder (I couldn't adjust it much with the top screws). I used a feeler gauge to measure about .020" difference, then used 3/8" ID arbor shims about the same thickness under the front motor bolts. That got the drive wheel parallel to the frame, but now the belt tracked a little too close to lthe frame. A top screw adjustment got it nearly perfect:








The belt is slightly off vertical; I should move the motor forward about 1/8", but it's good enough for me   . Viel really makes a solid machine, a pretty unbeatable value at under $80 for something made in Canada. I wish they made a jumbo version with a 56 frame motor and 2x48 belt!

[Mark Reich]

Several things...  Mr. Grepper takes his belt sharpening very seriously, and he is the only person I would allow to belt sharpen one of my knives for me. The other people I would trust use the same stones I use.

I sharpen my knives according to type of steel and use, so I finish knives on anything from 140 grit Atoma to 4µ PDP on leather. I use straight razors, which is a whole different game involving fine compounds, but that's a different kind of crazy.

Bark River is stretching the truth to put it mildly. They don't get their compounds from Ken. They used to a long time ago, but they've been trading on Ken's reputation for many years, so I'd rather not get into that.  

I have... probably close to 30 different compounds from going through the compound researching phase with Ken. We've been good friends longer than he's had any compounds. Ken was and is... literally, cutting edge.
 
I highly recommend getting your compounds straight from Ken.
Ken's contact info;    Phone; 209-612-2790       Email;  ksskss@earthlink.net

I have top of the line Japanese kitchen knives in White #1, and Super Blue (IMHO the best kitchen knife steels), pocket knives in every exotic steel, and my own 52100 knives, which have the most value and EDC use. I don't sharpen ANY of my knives on belts. None. Not even my wife's good stainless kitchen knives. I have practically every kind of stone, from the (inexpensive) King stones Murray Carter uses, to 30K Shapton Pro, and everything in between. Full sets of Naniwa, Shapton Glass and Pro (half of them are for razors). Also lots of Nubatamas and some really fancy J-Nats. 

It sounds to me like you're sharpening your kitchen knives correctly IMHO. I just don't bother with anything above 2K any more (usually 16µ PDP on a leather hone for maintenance), simply because that's way plenty sharp enough, with enough tooth. I totally understand wanting to see what 10k will do though. 

I sharpen around 1k knives/year on belts, but I've been sharpening in friendly competition with professional sharpeners (belts, EdgePro, WEPS and stones) for about a decade. I've been using stones for 45 out of my 51 years, so other than guided sharpening (which just takes too long), I know stones produce the best edge with the least amount of steel removal, which is very important for valuable knives that get a lot of use. 

So, about your Viel... You need to check out the thread about adding adjustment screws, HERE. It's a piece of cake, and given what you've put into yours, this is icing.

You will always use every belt you buy, and it takes about 4 belts to figure out if, how and why you like it. In addition to the coarse Blaze and Cubitrons, you will like every Deerfos belt up to 800 grit. Form there I go to compounds on leather or linen. Leather belts should come with very explicit directions. They will last anywhere from a few days to forever depending on how you treat them. Linen belts last a very long time no matter what. They should cost 5x what they do.

Having the belt plumb or level (machine laying down) isn't critical. The only thing that matters is blade to platen angle, and everyone should own one or more of THESE amazing little gadgets. 

Mr. Grepper has a working concept of another amazing little gadget that would qualify as a necessity if you wanted to achieve a specific angle on the edge. 

Otherwise, practice makes perfect.

[Ken S]

Mark,

I have a question. I am not advocating anything, just curious. Is your objection to belt grinders something inherant in the belt grinder itself or concern about the heat generated? I have not had much actual use time with my belt grinders. ( Most of my time with them has been involved assembling, disassembling, modifying and reassembling them over and over for this exchange. :  ) When I started doing this, my surface feet per minute was around 2700 with the Viel and 1800 with the smaller drive pulley of the Kally. With the PSI variable speed motor, this can be dropped to 900 right out of the box (using the smaller drive pulley with either machine. Adjusting the motor pot, 600 is obtainable. 

With this markedly lower SFM, my belt grinders run noticeably cooler. In this cooler environment, do you still prefer stones?

This is an interesting topic. i appreciate your comments.

Ken

ps A prelimnary search has not revealed any pyroceram in my shop, however, I am still on the case. I will keep you posted.