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STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-27-2018
Experiments on Knife Steeling
Quality honing steels are made of wear-resistant steel hardened to 65-67 HRC and chrome-plated.
Rockwell Hardness Difference Comparator tells us that steels are by at least 50% harder than the typical kitchen cutlery for which they're designed. The sharpening steels are designed for low-alloy stainless kitchen cutlery and mainstream knives, but limited as to the types of steels they will abrade, and are useless for high-end wear-resistant steels.
The two types of steels are smooth and grooved.
Smooth, also called polished steels, are used for deburring and re-aligning a rolled edge.
Grooved, also called ribbed, sharpening or honing steels used for light sharpening. These sharpening steels grinding power is rated by their “cut”: regular, fine and ultra-fine cut. You may think of the grooved/ribbed steels as single-cut files with the teeth running parallel with the rod, but with one important difference - the surfaces of the fine-cut ribs are smooth, and they increase rate of metal removal by reducing the contact area and increasing the local pressure rather than abrasion, which explains their remarkable burr-free honing action.
Butchers and chefs typically have 2 steels: one polished and one grooved; while meat plant workers usually are equipped with a single duo/combination steel that has both polished and grooved faces.
Spring-loaded twin smooth steels aren’t as good because they hardly hit the edge - it's natural to draw your blade too deeply, so the twin rods ride against the shoulder of the primary bevel, rather than the edge; in meat plants they are chiefly used to clean off grease deposits from the blade.
Renowned sharpening steels brands are F.Dick, D.Russell and Isler.
Butcher’s polished and grooved steels
![[Image: steel_polished.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steel_polished.jpg)
![[Image: steel_cut.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steel_cut.jpg)
Combo steel
![[Image: steel_combo.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steel_combo.jpg)
STEELING TECHNIQUE
Both the polished and grooved steels are necessary for a chef or meat worker to get through the day. Steeling technique is different for the polished and grooved steels, and correct steeling is a major skill needed to maintain the sharp edge.
A very sharp edge is maintained for hours of cutting by steeling on the smooth (polished) rod. But there comes a time when the edge apex gets weak from repeated realigning with a smooth steeling rod over that time; it rolls much too easily, even under pressure from your thumbnail, and the smooth steel rod can't fix that. That's when the meat worker abrades the edge apex off with the grooved sharpening steel and resets the edge. Then again just the smooth steel is doing the upkeep.
The smooth steel is also used to deburr a freshly sharpened edge. Some advanced users actually prefer steeling over stropping, on the knives that respond to it, as there's less risk of rounding the new apex this way, as can happen on a loaded strop.
Steeling is always done edge-leading.
Smooth rod technique for edge re-aligning (recovering a rolled edge): 2-4 heel-to-tip light passes alternating edge sides, at the edge angle.
Grooved rod technique for resetting the edge: 4-10 heel-to-tip firm and brisk strokes alternating edge sides, at the exact or slightly higher angle.
Video: https://youtu.be/itS-KhyEK7w
SCANNING ELECTRONE MICROSCOPE (SEM) STUDIES
In his Experiments on Knife Sharpening Prof. John D. Verhoeven studied use of smooth steels in deburring on a stainless steel hardened to 60 HRC.
Todd Simpson (scienceofsharp.wordpress.com) shared his observations on use of honing steels for edge re-aligning.
Prof. Verhoeven
Prof. Verhoeven found out that the best deburring with a smooth steel is achieved by 2 back-and-forth light passes alternating edge sides, and the result depends on whether the burr is off a #600 or #1000 grinding wheel.
#600 – large burr
"The SEM micrographs show that the action of the steeling on the 600 grit blades is one of wrapping the burr formed by the wheels around to one side of the edge and deforming it up against the face. The net effect is a slightly straighter edge with significantly reduced roughness in face views and a more uniform and slightly thinner average edge width in edge views."
#1000 – small burr
The smooth steels do deburr, but:
"The steeling process does not offer an improvement in edge quality with respect to edge straightness, edge roughness or edge width over that obtained with the fine 1000 grit."
Increasing number of passes causes ledge breakout as the edge of the blade is very susceptible to fracture as well as plastic deformation in the steeling process.
"…with 15 b&f passes it was very common to observe breaking off of ledges of material along the edge… Reducing the number of b&f passes to 2 dramatically reduced both the density of such ledge break-out regions along the edge as well as the size of the ledge regions… In summary, the effect of the number of passes was fairly clear, the lowest number of passes studied, 2 b&f passes, produced the best edges."
It was also shown that too high a steeling angle, higher than 10 degrees over the edge angle, is detrimental to fine edges - e.g. for a 20 dps edge, a steeling angle of over 30 dps will be detrimental, while within 20-30 dps is alright.
Unfortunately, Prof. Verhoeven’s data have little practical application because they cannot be extrapolated onto kitchen cutlery and meat processing knives which typical blade hardness is near 55 HRC as opposed to the 60 HRC used in his study, while the HRC60 blades are hardly ever steeled in real life.
Todd Simpson
Todd's observations are extremely valuable, and not only because SEM studies of knives are rare.
"I've only looked at steeling on a few hard knife steels and carbon steel utility blades.
What I observed is that honing rods (including polished steel) primarily cut a micro-bevel; however, there is some burnishing or "pushing around" of steel occurring as well. My speculation is that unlike softer steels that are work-hardened by steeling, the hard steel is "work-softened" and it's only that soft steel (near the apex) that can be pushed around."
In our understanding, what Todd sees on the SEM, is the time when the edge apex gets weak from repeated realigning with a smooth steeling rod and when the edge must be reset with a grooved sharpening rod by abrading off the apex.
The following SEM images made by Todd are of a dull edge, steeled on smooth and grooved steels – in both cases metal removal and micro-bevelling are obvious; Todd gave the blades 10 strokes on the steels before taking them to the SEM.
![[Image: SEM_dull_01.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SEM_dull_01.jpg)
Dull edge
![[Image: SEM_smooth_steel_02.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SEM_smooth_steel_02.jpg)
Smooth steeling
![[Image: SEM_grooved_steel03.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SEM_grooved_steel03.jpg)
Grooved (abrasive) steeling
OUR EXPERIMENTS
We studied deburring and re-aligning using a 10" F.Dick Combi Steel (polished/fine-cut).
Deburring was studied on SWIBO knives of HRC 57-58.
Recovering a rolled edge was studied on common brands of professional meat processing knives of HRC 55-56, and SWIBO knives of HRC 57-58.
![[Image: steeling_SET.JPG]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_SET.JPG)
All knives and blades were sharpened at 15° degrees per side (dps); we maintained the constant angle of steeling by placing the steel on a base angled at 15 degrees from the vertical, and holding the knife/blade as near vertical as possible while drawing it along the steel.
![[Image: steeling_angle.JPG]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_angle.JPG)
Effect of steeling was estimated by a BESS sharpness tester PT50A.
Controlled edge rolling was done on the BESS SET Structural Edge Tester.
Video: https://youtu.be/EdGOSWjrM0E
DEBURRING
Deburring was studied on SWIBO knives (HRC 57-58) sharpened at 15 dps on #200, #400, #600 and #1000 CBN wheels on Tormek.
Steeling was done edge-leading on the smooth (polished) faces of the F.Dick Combi Steel, at the edge angle, in two modes:
- by 2 heel-to-tip light passes alternating edge sides; and
- by 2 back-and-forth light passes alternating edge sides (total 4 passes each side).
Edge sharpness was measured off the wheel before steeling, then after the steeling done in the first mode; the edge was then steeled in the second mode – improvements in sharpness scores can be interpreted as the burr reduction.
![[Image: steeling_table1.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_table1.png)
* The #1000 edge, steeled by 2 back-and-forth passes each side gave the best sharpness of 179 BESS on the smooth steel; the burr is not visible any more.
By the BESS reading we can tell that after steeling the #1000 edge has a weak wire edge, because actual edge sharpness is better than what the we see on the instrument display – this edge push-cuts Tally-Ho cigarette paper longitudinally, which is indicative of a sharpness of 110 BESS or better, and the fact that the sharpness tester shows a worse score tells us that the very edge apex gets crushed over the test line – when the apex gets "mushroomed" in the point of testing, this allows to apply more force before the test line severs, giving a falsely higher score on the display. As an illustration, the following SEM image shows a "mushroomed" edge apex:
![[Image: SEM_mushrooming.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SEM_mushrooming.jpg)
By courtesy of Todd Simpson
Even though on our SWIBO knife of HRC 57-58 we could not fully repeat Prof. Verhoeven’s results he obtained on HRC 60 s/s blades using #600 and #1000 wheels, the smooth (polished) steeling does help to deburr after #1000, probably by what Prof. Verhoeven described as "wrapping the burr formed by the wheels around to one side of the edge and deforming it up against the face".
We’ve carried out one more experiment to check effect of steeling on the grooved fine-cut faces as described above in the Steeling Technique for resetting the edge.
![[Image: steeling_table2.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_table2.png)
The last deburring technique makes the edge shaving sharp, and can be used in the absence of more advanced deburring means.
RECOVERING A ROLLED EDGE
Common brands of professional meat processing stainless steel knives were sharpened at 15 dps (30° included) on Tormek, edge set on #1000 CBN wheel, and deburred on a paper wheel with 5 micron diamonds (#3000).
Grinding angle of 15 dps was set with the help of our software for Tormek http://knifegrinders.com.au/05Equipment_scripts.htm
Deburring was done on the paper wheel at a 0.4° higher angle, i.e. at 15.4 dps; honing angle was controlled with our software for paper wheels
http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop_PWsupport.htm
As we found out in a separate study, this is the best deburring angle for these knives. Honing with fine diamonds at the exact edge angle usually produces a weak wire edge on mainstream stainless steel knives of HRC 55-58, detectable by BESS sharpness scores higher than they should be because of "mushrooming" the weak wire edge against the test line in the point of testing – honing at a little higher angle eliminates this problem by cutting off the weak apex.
Edge angle was verified with a CATRA laser protractor
![[Image: Laser_Protractor_15dps_.JPG]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Laser_Protractor_15dps_.JPG)
Controlled edge rolling on the BESS SET Structural Edge Tester was done by series of 5 cycles to the 50th cycle, and then from the 50th to 100th cycle by series of 10 cycles; overall each blade received 100 rolling cycles.
Rolling cycle explained
The impact roller is a linear bearing slant at 10° to the horizontal base or in other words at 80° to the plane of the blade clamped vertically.
Standard impact assembly weight is 150 grams.
The impact roller is lowered at "A", then moved (rolled) over to "B" and then back to "A".
A-B-A is one cycle.
![[Image: SET_Cycle.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SET_Cycle.png)
After each series of rolling, edge sharpness was measured, and the edge was steeled by realigning technique described above i.e. on the smooth (polished) steel by heel-to-tip light passes alternating edge sides, and the sharpness measured again.
Our preliminary tests have shown that the best sharpness recovery after rolling on the SET tester is achieved by 4 alternating passes on the smooth steel – and this was the standard through all experiments.
The edge was reset once after the 50th rolling cycle by the edge-resetting steeling i.e. on the grooved fine-cut steel by 4 heel-to-tip firm strokes alternating edge sides, and finishing on the smooth steel with 1 heel-to-tip light pass each side. After the last 100th cycle we did one more steeling on the grooved steel to see if there is any change in response to abrasion.
To better the data validity, we were taking sharpness measurements on 2 points of the blade, obtaining two sets of numbers and averaging them in each case.
Earlier, we had the same knives tested on the BESS SET Structural Edge Tester without steeling, and used that data as the baseline.
Knives used in this experiment:
![[Image: steeling_table3.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_table3.png)
We’ve got masses of numbers, averaged them across all the three knives, and built a graph.
Results are very interesting.
Link to raw data >>
Link to averaged data >>
The below graph is built on average sharpness scores of the three knives: SWIBO, GUISSER and VICTORINOX – the grey baseline shows average edge rolling without steeling, and the blue line shows average edge rolling with steeling; grooved abrasive steeling is shown by the red arrow.
![[Image: chart_steeling.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/chart_steeling.png)
The most interesting findings:
500 BESS is the score of a blunt knife – without steeling all of the tested knife brands reached this benchmark within the first 50 rolls, while with steeling none of them has blunted even after 100 rolls.
Following edge reset on the grooved steel, sharpness recovery by smooth steeling increases by 2-3 times.
Abrasive (grooved) steeling resets the edge apex back to the elastic state.
Systematic steeling prevents the edge apex transition to irreversible plastic deformation.
Our experiments have also shown that higher HRC is associated with better response to smooth (polished) steeling, while lower HRC – to grooved (abrasive) steeling. In other words, softer knives of HRC 55-56 perform better with frequent grooved steeling, while harder knives of HRC 57-58+ perform well with smooth steeling and can be dulled by overuse of the abrasive steel.
Mike Brubacher, the inventor of the BESS Edge Sharpness Testers and SET Structural Edge Tester has noted that "... edges that have been rolled up to 200 points, we are able to restore those edges to their original sharpness reading simply by stropping and straightening the edge on a solid surface."
We cannot observe this on the SET tester because of the more than 200 points impact, but in real life steeling does return the rolled edge back to shaving sharp.
Steeling recovers the rolled edge through these mechanisms:
- straightening structural elements of the apex by realigning some and deforming others up against the face;
- micro-bevelling through adhesive wear on smooth steels, and abrasion on grooved;
- work hardening.
Printer-friendly version >>
RE: STEELING - EOU - 08-27-2018
Couldn't be better timing than this for a well written and thoughtful article KG. Rolled edges seem to be a very significant factor in dulling of knife edges. Since we haven't been able to come up with a vaccine for the problem it seems that we are stuck, for the time being, with discussing treatment options. It seems to us that one of the most effective treatments might be the time honored method of "steeling" knife edges. It also seems somewhat of a "lost art" and the "lost" would include just about everyone in this office. Thanks for this primer KG. It inspires us to take some of our own medicine and to try to become more proficient with this edge extending practice.
STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-28-2018
TOOL STEEL HRC54 versus HRC62
Next, we tested two A2 tool steel blades, hardened at HRC54 vs HRC62, to compare response to steeling by hardness. A2 is a high carbon, high molybdenum tool steel. The A2 blade #7 has been hardened to HRC 54, while the A2 blade #11 to HRC 62.
![[Image: A2_blades_steeling.JPG]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/A2_blades_steeling.JPG)
We already had baseline data rolling them without steeling in our previous research Effect of Hardness on Edge Retention
We sharpened the A2 blades at 15 dps, and rolled the same way as the knives above.
Controlled edge rolling on the BESS SET Structural Edge Tester was done by series of 5 cycles to the 50th cycle, and then from the 50th to 100th cycle by series of 10 cycles; overall each blade received 100 rolling cycles.
After each series of rolling, edge sharpness was measured, and the edge was steeled on the smooth (polished) steel by 4 heel-to-tip light passes alternating edge sides, and the sharpness measured again.
As per the plan, the edge was reset once after the 50th rolling cycle on the grooved fine-cut steel by 4 heel-to-tip firm strokes alternating edge sides, and finishing on the smooth steel with 1 heel-to-tip light pass each side. However, in the course of testing, the HRC54 A2 blade went nuts, and we gave it one more edge-resetting steeling on the grooved steel.
Link to raw data >>
Averaged data
![[Image: steeling_table4.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/steeling_table4.png)
Results are pretty intriguing.
While the knives, even though of differing hardness from HRC55 to HRC58, show the same pattern in the edge sharpness response to steeling, the A2 tool steel response is very different to both the knives, and between the A2 blades.
The A2 HRC54 blade initially behaved similarly to the stainless steel knives, showing clear benefit from smooth steeling, but a single grooved steeling killed the edge, and it won’t recover.
The A2 HRC62 blade initially outperformed the knives, as expected, showing some benefit from smooth steeling, however with more steeling became just like them; the steeling lowered the A2 tool steel HRC62 edge retention to that of a mainstream stainless steel knife, especially when done with a grooved (abrasive) steel. Overall, systematic steeling is slightly detrimental to the edge.
The below graphs for HRC54 and HRC62 show the rolled edge response to smooth steeling as a blue line compared to the grey baseline; grooved abrasive steeling is shown by the red arrow.
![[Image: chart_steeling_A2_HRC54.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/chart_steeling_A2_HRC54.png)
![[Image: chart_steeling_A2_HRC62.png]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/chart_steeling_A2_HRC62.png)
Conclusion
We, just like many before us, read the Prof. Verhoeven’s supposition on steeling of blades hardened at or over HRC60 as a warning against using them in the environments where steeling is common:
“It also seems likely that the hardness of the blades might have a significant effect on
the occurrence of edge breakout during steeling. Hardness values above HRC = 60
would increase the occurrence of breakout above that found here, and values below 60
would decrease occurrence.”
This supposition has been confirmed by our experiments, and by what we’ve seen steeling is not recommended for tool steels hardened over HRC60, though smooth steeling may be beneficial for tool blades of a lesser hardness.
RE: STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-28-2018
I don't know meatworking facilities that use knives over HRC 58, and I don't think it is because of the price, but rather because of the ease of steeling the knife back to very sharp.
We know that both the HRC 55-58 and harder HRC 60+ knives initially blunt at a similar rate and quickly turn from very sharp to just working sharp, but meat workers need them stay very sharp.
Our experimental data on steeling show that steeled HRC 55-58 knives stay sharper than the HRC 62.
I suppose that where the meat workers are happy with just a reasonably sharp knife they prefer a harder steel of HRC 60+ because it holds the edge longer, but where they need it very sharp, they pick the HRC 55-56.
With all that said, where price is not a concern, knives at 59-60HRC should have the best retention of a sharp edge with steeling on a smooth (polished) steel, but I am yet to confirm this experimentally.
RE: STEELING - Bud - 08-28-2018
Thank you Mr. KnifeGrinders for the interesting post. I've tried straightening with a smooth steel before but didn't have much success. While some sections of the edge straightened out others were just torn up with missing sections of edge. Quite honestly the whole edge leading thing doesn't make much sense to me. Seems like you might roll the edge even worse. I've watched the videos and everybody says steel into the edge so I won't argue that. Steels crusted with abrasive or that have been turned into files make no sense at all to me. If I want to grind an edge I'll use my Kally. I have been successful straightening edges that haven't been rolled too badly with a piece of leather belt glued to a short piece of 2 x 4. I've also used my jeans on edges that are only rolled a little. So what's the best and what's the difference between any of these methods? Should I be learning to use a steel? Is a steel supposed to straighten an edge that a piece of leather won't?
I can see why a butcher wouldn't be using a piece of leather. Too much fat and grease but is it better somehow at straightening edges in your opinion?
RE: STEELING - grepper - 08-28-2018
First, thanks Mr. KG. The depth of your posts is always amazing. Moreover, you include supporting data which is rare in so many forum posts. So often knife forum posts are just people declaring missives, spouting opinions, hearsay and blather as fact without any hit of research. I understand the effort and time required to do the testing you do, so thanks for sharing!
Mr. Bud exclaimed, "Quite honestly the whole edge leading thing doesn't make much sense to me."
I have wondered the exact same thing. I would not try to straighten an edge with an edge leading stroke, as it seems that could further roll an edge depending on how the blade impacted the steel.
Any ideas about that?
RE: STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-28-2018
It is following Mike's posts on his SET rolling tester which initially used only 100 grams impact, and my own experience with its current version of 150 grams impact, that made me appreciate how gentle strokes on the steel should be for the best effect, and also role of the smooth steel and importance of the steeling angle to be as close to the edge angle as possible, especially for the smooth steel.
As Todd Simpson notes, the force applied in steeling is just enough to make contact, but the pressure on the edge is enormous because the contact area is small.
The sharpness scores improve by 100 points after very light passes on the smooth steel, but with more edge rolling and steeling the sharpness restores less and less down to 50 points, and where it is less than that it is time to use the grooved steel.
I haven't tried edge-trailing steeling, am curious to try, but steeling into the edge is logical considering the steeling mechanisms of ironing the roll up against the edge face and micro-beveling; for these experiments I steeled the way the meat plant operators steel.
What we've seen and what others say, steeling is not for every knife; there is a group of knives to which it is detrimental, in our experience grooved (abrasive) steeling is bad for blades of HRC <= 54, and both smooth and grooved steeling is not good for blades >= HRC 62.
I have tried jeans, cork, plain and loaded leather for recovering the edge:
- jeans effect is usually nill to slightly worse;
- drawing through a cork is unpredictable, may improve or worsen;
- plain leather is always good, and leather loaded with a fine honing paste is even better.
I am yet to compare leather stropping to smooth steeling, will do some day. Todd has SEM images for both on his website https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com and interesting thoughts on mechanisms through which they recover the edge.
RE: STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-30-2018
Ceramic rod vs traditional grooved (ribbed) steels
I have re-visited Todd's SEM study on steeling https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/
The following 2 SEM images taken by Todd are of the same carbon blade steeled with a grooved (ribbed) steel as compared to "steeled" with ceramic rod
Grooved steeling
![[Image: SEM_ceramic_rod.jpg]](http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SEM_ceramic_rod.jpg)
Ceramic rod steeling
Though they look quite similar, showing an improved apex and micro-bevel, the traditional steel does it cleaner, while the ceramic rod creates scuffing on both sides of the edge - and where the presentation cut is important, traditional steel is preferred.
But this discussion should not diminish benefits of gentle smooth steeling - smooth steeling has shown especially good sharpness recovery on knives of HRC 58+ (of common meat professional knives it is SWIBO).
E.g meat plant operators smooth-steel after every 10 cuts about 10 times before they use a grooved steel.
There is the best ratio of smooth-to-grooved steeling for a given hardness, e.g. for HRC 55-56 knives (like Victorinox) it is 10:1, while for HRC 58 (like SWIBO) it may be 20:1.
RE: STEELING - grepper - 08-30-2018
Mr. KG stated, "meat plant operators smooth-steel after every 10 cuts about 10 times before they use a grooved steel."
Well, that’s amazing. Every 10 cuts! Considering most folks, including myself, never bother to steel at all, steeling every 10 cuts is surprising. Those carcass disassembly technicians must actually be spending a considerable part of their day just steeling.
From your observations, how many strokes did they steel between every 10 cuts?
Looking at the SEM images, the top part of the bevel from apex down appears to actually be bulged above the rest of the side of the knife. It sort of looks like there is some junk smeared down the bevel from the apex causing a layer over the edge. Any idea what that is?
RE: STEELING - KnifeGrinders - 08-30-2018
(08-30-2018, 06:18 PM)grepper Wrote: Mr. KG stated, "meat plant operators smooth-steel after every 10 cuts about 10 times before they use a grooved steel."
Well, that’s amazing. Every 10 cuts! Considering most folks, including myself, never bother to steel at all, steeling every 10 cuts is surprising. Those carcass disassembly technicians must actually be spending a considerable part of their day just steeling.
From your observations, how many strokes did they steel between every 10 cuts?
Looking at the SEM images, the top part of the bevel from apex down appears to actually be bulged above the rest of the side of the knife. It sort of looks like there is some junk smeared down the bevel from the apex causing a layer over the edge. Any idea what that is?
They are instructed by trainers to use the spring-loaded twin smooth rods after every 5 cuts, do 2-4 alternating strokes on the smooth steel every 10 cuts, and use the grooved steel as they feel needed.
Similarly to you, I was astonished at seeing this non-stop steeling at the meat plant - feels like an archaic tradition behind the age we live in.
It is just not right that they have to steel every 10 cuts to keep the edge cutting. Some better solution is definitely out there, but whatever it is it will be not about the knife steel only, even though by now we have improved our understanding what the meat processing knife should be - it will be about the steel and some edge recovery appliance used together.
Grepper - was it you who noticed that the ceramic rod may produce a double-sided mini-burr? I remember reading about this on this or Tormek forum, but cannot find the thread.