+- The BESS Exchange is sponsored by Edge On Up (http://bessex.com/forum)
+-- Forum: BESS Forums (http://bessex.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Edge Sharpness Testing (http://bessex.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Bevel angle vs sharpness (/showthread.php?tid=86)
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - SteveG - 08-07-2017
Ken, thanks for the input, and the guidance on LL's video. I've read his book (some sections several times), as well as Ron Hock's. Both very good, though I'm always full of questions even after reading. Anyhow, I just ordered the DVD from LV, looking forward to that. And, to return the favor, in case you're interested, Richard Maguire (The English Woodworker - theenglishwoodworker.com) has a sharpening "class" online that has some interesting insights - it's a bit long, but he's usually entertaining enough that I found it worthwhile. In any case, I'll test some of the inserts with a factory edge, and sharpen them on some diamond-pasted strops and remeasure, and post that to a new thread as you suggest. Hopefully someone else will use some CBN and give us some comps. That would be very interesting.
EOU - Thanks for the feedback (and for the welcome). I suspect some user error on my part, I was testing a #11 gouge, and there's a good chance I wasn't holding it perfectly perpendicular or still, so I might have sliced the line instead of push-cutting it. The same might also be true for the straight edge I tested (though I have no excuse for that one). Once I get my setup fully situated and get used to the machine, I'll figure out a way to get consistent readings, and then see if they're really as different as my one-off check. And I'll incorporate your suggestion for wiggling the legs. The gouge, FWIW, was very sharp from the factory, and I didn't use it until after the PT arrived, since I wanted a benchmark for my own sharpening efforts. It cuts like a dream, so maybe it really is just that sharp.
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - Ken S - 08-07-2017
Steve,
"It's a bit long." Are all English woodworking online classes that way? I'm thinking of David Charlesworth. I hold his knowledge and teaching in very high regard. He would not be on my list of dynamic speakers. In truth, the English tradition of woodworking is most useful. I will check out Richard Maguire; thanks for the tip.
I hope your sharpening technique has not maxed out. If so, you would miss the fun of future growth. (I am in no danger of being in that situation...."The lyfe so short, the craft so hard to learn."
Keep growing....
Ken
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - SteveG - 08-07-2017
Charlesworth is more "deliberate" than Maguire, and a quite different approach. I'd be interested in your feedback if you watch his vids. I like Charlesworth, too, makes me wish I was raised to take life at that pace!
No, not maxed at all. I know a lot of facts, but haven't put it all together, and my skills are way behind my knowledge, so for me death will come before mastery - there will always be plenty to learn, which keeps it fun. Thanks for all the advice.
Steve
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - Ken S - 08-08-2017
Steve,
I watched a couple of Richard Maguire's videos and enjoyed them. Very solid information, well presented, with interesting insight. I recommend them; thanks for the referral. The concept of the sole of a wooden plane burnishing the worked wood was new to me. I will continue to follow him.
There is much to learn. Like you, my head knowledge surpasses my hand knowledge. While trying to balance that, I do believe in the value of both.
I agree with your comment that it would be quite pleasant to live at a slower pace, fully enjoying the craft. I have noticed coexisting paths in sharpening, woodworking and photography. One is the fast paced, more automated path. While much of this work may also be of good quality, the key word is production. There was an old ad for one of the industrial dovetail routing jigs, stating that the craftsman could cut forty drawers in an hour. In our secret lives, many of us wanted to be that man and cut forty drawers in an hour. In reality, most of us would not cut forty drawers in our lifetimes, however, the mystique was powerful.
The second path is represented by those who prefer to lay out and handcut dovetails.
In photography we have those who work with automatic everything and email their images to be printed, and those who prefer to control the process, either with film or digitally. Each path has its place, and in truth, some follow both.
In sharpening we have those (including some capable professional carpenters) who sharpen by stopping at the big box store and purchasing a new chisel or use "never need sharpening" kitchen knives. We also have the obsessive ones like us. We are not entirely impractical. Some of us, like Maxtheknife, are professional sharpeners striving to turn out a fine job in a cost efficient time frame. Some are knife makers, striving for perfection. Many of us are just fascinated. I am quite happily in that group. That gives us the luxury of being able to be non competitive. We can learn from our shared experience.
Ken
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - SteveG - 08-08-2017
Ken,
Glad you're enjoying Richard's videos - I never know whether what appeals to me is of interest to others. Yeah, he made me thinking about getting a wooden plane, though I'm resisting the temptation (I have a nice collection of Lie-Nielsen's and Veritas', and don't want to tinge my investment there just yet). Where I became fascinated was when he spoke to the different steels - he's an oil stone guy, but he talked about needing waterstones for A2, and some things started to click for me. I think it's Odate who has a different stone for every blade he owns, and while that might be overkill (and I thought it silly when I first saw it), I started to understand why. Funny thing about learning, the more I know, the less certain I become of my opinions.
I'm happy to be doing woodworking and sharpening as a hobby. While I admire the pros who can whip things out (at a quality I can only dream of achieving), it's the one part of my life where time isn't pressure; probably why I so much enjoy the Charlesworth videos, both the pace and the knowledge.
So, I did a few tests on a Woodpeckers scraper insert yesterday, which left me with some questions. I'd like to put together a set of comparisons between different steels and edge angles, but the inserts are at 60 degrees, so probably not a useful comp. I just ordered some carbide coated utility blades, which might be, but I'm trying to figure out how to get a set of items to test that I can vary the angles to match, and plane blades and chisels seem like the best I can do. I also found another issue that gave me pause: I took three measurements for the insert, and they were pretty widely spread. I left the numbers out in the shop, so don't have them at-hand, but the low was around 460, and the high around 560. Is that normal, or do I need to be more careful as I'm testing?
BTW, I like hand cutting dovetails (though I'm not fond of starting over because I screwed them up).
What type of photography do you do? I'm not a photographer, but I'm sure it's a fun hobby (assuming it's a hobby). What type of woodworking?
Steve
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - grepper - 08-08-2017
I’m not a woodworker at all, but I have a basic hardware store chisel that I sharpened to about 130 gf BESS. I would expect that soon you will be able to get sharper than the 400-500 range. When I speak of bevel angle, I refer to just one side, so 15° would be a total of 30° both sides. I mention that because I'm not sure what you mean by 60°.
I’ve found two things are most important in sharpening. The first is to maintain a consistent angle while sharpening. If you grind too flat then you are grinding off the edge on the bevel just wasting your time. Grind too steeply and it’s cutting a new edge on every pass. For me at least, it is next to impossible to maintain a perfect sharpening angle by hand!
The second is complete burr removal. If the burr is not removed the actual sharp edge is never exposed and the burr smashes down and either covers the edge or folds over to one side. Right off the sharpener I’ve seen knives read +300 gf. Remove the burr and it drops to 150 gf.
If you are getting wildly inconsistent readings over the length of the edge then either it is not evenly sharpened or there is varying amounts of burr in different areas of the edge. Remember the test media is only .009” diameter so it is very difficult to measure the exact same spot on the blade by hand more than once. For example, a “toothy” edge can show slightly different readings over the length of the blade just because the edge is not perfectly smooth.
I’ve found a good light and a 10X loupe or better still a USB microscope can be very informative:
http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - SteveG - 08-08-2017
Sorry, I mislead you a bit in my message - the carbide insert was brand new, just opened the package and tested. The 60 degrees is the inclusive angle, which, combined with being carbide, might be the reason it reads so high. I will sharpen it and retest, and let you know the results, but need to make some diamond strops first.
As far as chisel/plane sharpening goes, I seem to be doing ok: I had a 105 BESS reading on a blade I sharpened this weekend; knives are a different story.
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - grepper - 08-08-2017
105! Outstanding!
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - SteveG - 08-08-2017
Surprised me! Maybe too good to be true; I'm doing my best to push, not slice, but have some doubts.
RE: Bevel angle vs sharpness - grepper - 08-08-2017
I suspect your reading is accurate and you are doing a fine job of sharpening. Just slowly push in to the test media until it breaks. You don’t have to do it super slowly. Just push down to somewhere around 100 and then slowly so you see about 5gf/second. Don’t make a big deal about it, just don’t jam it through.
A 105 reading is great! Good job! My experience is mostly knives and I generally try to sharpen them to around 150. 150 is plenty sharp! IMHO, when you start getting less than that the edge is so thin I suspect it starts to lose durability. Even 150 probably starts to be a balance between durability and sharpness. I’ve found that getting below a 100 reading requires very careful sharpening, so if you are around 100 congratulations.
Soon you will get a feel for it and see that it’s not a big deal to take a measurement.